A question whose answer is really its own post. (poly stuff)

[moominmuppet]

From a conversation in the comments of a friend's journal, in which conversations about poly dynamics were had:
(italics is the other person, regular text is me)


Hmm, I guess sharing a home is probably harder than sharing a partner.

*chuckle* So totally true! Although I think having practice with poly negotiations has helped us navigate that. (and to clarify, I'm not actually involved with anyone I'm living with; my "household" is chosen family to me, and that's very important to me, but generally non-romantic).

Oh, and since I've friended you and added you to the sexuality filter (you'll see more posts if you look at my journal now), here's the quick background for context:
On the dating side, I have two very long-term non-primary partners, Katy and Tori, who I've been seeing for almost ten years, and who used to live locally but now live in Baltimore. I adore them, and am very happy with our dynamic, nor would I be compatible with them as a co-primary partner. I have a local friendly dating relationship with my partner Erin, who I've been seeing off and on for about three years now. Again, we wouldn't be compatible if we tried to force that into a traditional relationship. I have a couple of casual partners that I see very infrequently, and currently one serious relationship developing with **** (known as NL in my journal for the moment). It's confusing, to say the least, but has worked out remarkably well for my life.

I have trouble giving enough of myself to my wife...let alone spreading that out to other people. How do you deal with that? Who do you come to first when you are having a hard time with something emotionally?

First of all, disclaimer time. There are a multitude of ways to "do poly", and mine is far from the most common. What works for me is very much a response to specifics of my psyche and personality. It's actually quite rare for me to be developing the kind of relationship that I seem to be with NL, so I'll talk about pre-NL first, and then address that afterward.

I've rarely taken well to being really "couply"; it's very easy for me to feel "fenced in" in ways that really make me freak out and shut down. Even in terms of platonic friendships I've almost always leaned toward groups and networks instead of really tight dyads. I like having a lot of autonomy and freedom, I like being "mostly single", which is how I often describe having non-primary partners but no primary partner. For me, the distinction is about lifestyle compatibility as much as anything else, about taking on the world as a team, and shared goals. There are people I love deeply that I could not partner with as a primary because we don't want the same things out of life. Non-primary relationships of various sorts allow me to enjoy what's wonderful and amazing about the other person without trying to force our interaction into a box it'll never fit, and destroy everything in the process. I very much see this alternative as a source of joy. Some of these are very, very casual, some quite committed and long-term. It's not all that unlike variations in friendship intensity -- it can vary from "we get along and share a hobby" to intense life-long connections. How much I emotionally rely on my non-primary partners is more a function of the intensity of our underlying friendship than anything else; I wouldn't really categorically separate it out from the support I get from (or provide to) the friends I'm not shtupping. And that's also where the Household fits in; when it comes to intertwined lives and shared goals, the household is where I find that comfort and satisfaction, primarily. When I'm having a shitty day, they're who I come home to, and who listens to my griping and takes care of me when I'm sick and struggles together over bills, and all those "family" things. Having that sense of family platonically has been very stabilizing and comfortable for me. Overall, I really haven't been looking for anything resembling a primary partnership, and usually look forward to my future as the crazy cat lady down the street with some glee. I like my life a lot, and am really not that flexible on a number of points. Being romantically partnered isn't something that I particularly crave. As a result, I've often found I'm happiest dating people who have a primary partner of their own; I think I'm good at respecting primary partnerships and boundaries, and I find that folks who have primary partners already aren't generally looking for something from me that I'm unlikely to provide. Also, people in stable poly primary relationships are less likely to go falling for someone monogamous and having to end things with me because of it (something of a hard issue for me -- more on that in a bit).

Hmmm. This seems to be a good point to clarify the distinction between frequency of contact and depth of trust. I am an obscenely lucky human being. There are a very large number of people I trust quite deeply, even if we don't see each other or speak very often at all (this is partially about those people and partially about my own temperament, honestly). And for me, it's the trust and comfort and honesty of those relationships that matters much more than how often I interact (especially since I tend to go through long phases where I don't want to interact with anyone outside my house). Sometimes I rely emotionally on one friend, sometimes on another. It may depend on who's good with a certain topic, or it might just be a matter of practical availability. Given that I'm bipolar, and that phases of my life could be really exhausting for any one person to support me through, I really like the distributed network of support model. And honestly, I use LJ (and FB cross-posts) a lot as a way of keeping everyone who's interested up to date on what's going on with me -- that way I'm less likely to forget to update folks I see rarely on important events in my life.

As to how the rules work in my life, here's what normally matters to me that I clarify with my partners:

1) In terms of safer sex and new partners: although I always like hearing what's going on in their lives, and I'd be weirded out if a partner was intentionally hiding new developments from me, there is no requirement to check in with me first before playing with someone new; it's not generally an emotional hot-button for me that needs advance negotiation. However, I do need to know about it (and any relevant safer sex info) before the next time we play. In actuality, we usually do end up talking about such things before hand anyway, because we're friends, and friends talk and share juicy stories (safer sex update convos can be all sorts of porny goodness with the right partners *evil grin*).

2) At this point in my life, no one has veto power over any of my decisions, but that doesn't mean I don't take my other partners' concerns seriously. In fact, I find them really helpful for reality checks and thought-provoking perspectives. And if I were making decisions that led my current partners to be uncomfortable continuing to play with me that'd be a big huge thing, and I'd seriously question my own judgment. And my existing emotional connections with my partners are a big thing, too. I have great trouble even conceiving of a situation in which I'd be willing to sacrifice my relationship with Katy and Tori, for example.

3) I do have some emotional hot-buttons that I need handled with extra care. One of the most important, as it relates to dating, is losing valued but non-primary partners to monogamous relationships. It's something I understand, and even encourage, but it's definitely bittersweet. To minimize my stress over that, and to handle the end of things gracefully and lovingly, I really need warning. To that end, I've specifically requested that if my partners feel that something in their lives may be headed in that direction, to please give me a heads up so that I can say my goodbyes to that element of the relationship, and not constantly be wondering if each time is the last time.

4) Never intentionally cause unnecessary pain. That's not just in regards to poly stuff, that's a basic part of my ethics. I also expect honesty and respect from my partners, and hope I give them full measure of both in return.

I'm trying to think of other rules, implicit or explicit, and I'm having trouble coming up with anything else. In general I'm a very "hold on loosely" kind of person, and do best with other people who are similar in temperament.

So, up 'til a few months ago, that's all I'd have to write about the topic. And then NL happened. And now I'm not sure what else to write, because he and I are still sorting out exactly what we are. Whatever it is, it's high on the emotional intensity scale, and I'm finding myself desiring his company more often than I generally desire anyone's. Obviously, a lot of that is about garden-variety compatibility and mutual interest, but a lot of it is about how he doesn't set off my "bail and run" buttons, which might actually be more useful to talk about. It is vanishingly rare for me to find people that I connect with this way because I am so set in my ways, and my ways are statistical outliers. And I tend to steer a wide berth around situations that are likely to repeat relationship struggles I've had in the past. In terms of poly dynamics, that's especially true. For an intense relationship, I'm not even a good match for most other poly folk; I really need a level of freedom that can be uncomfortable and difficult to negotiate successfully. NL has really seemed able to take that in stride and be honestly comfortable with it. And although jealousy issues are a perfectly normal thing to work through in poly relationships, I tend to deal particularly poorly with them, and do much better with partners who just aren't prone to it (I personally am not either -- it's just not where my hot-buttons live). Otherwise I start reacting to feeling "possessed" and that gets unpretty _real_ fast. NL's got poly experience that's generally demonstrated that jealousy isn't one of the big issues for him, and I've never felt the least bit like he's trying to mark his territory on me. Additionally, he's treated my other partners with a great deal of respect, even in absentia. That's critical and central to how I make judgments. On a more practical level, it's also true that I'm just more comfortable when I'm dating other people with bi experience, and that's another level of what's working between us. And maybe most over-archingly, he treats my emotional needs for autonomy and space with a great deal of respect. Also, he has really sexy politics, and that's incredibly, incredibly important to me. In intense relationships where that wasn't the case, I ended up feeling very alone and alienated, because those issues are so central to everything about how I live my life.

OK, I'm going to stop rambling and go chat with NL 'til it's time to go home (he's been patiently waiting for me to finish that last paragraph -- I've been chatting with him about it as I write)

Comments

[bkwrrm-tx.livejournal.com]

Interesting reading for someone who isn't poly, but has many poly friends. Thanks.

[moominmuppet.livejournal.com]

My pleasure! Just my little data point.

[bkwrrm-tx.livejournal.com]

If you wouldn't mind, I'd be interested in being on your sex filter. Only if it doesn't make you uncomfortable, since we're just getting to know one another.

[moominmuppet.livejournal.com]

Sure! All set now. The filter is really there more for the benefit of my sibs and other people who really don't want to see those posts than to protect my rather non-existent modesty. *wink*

[moominmuppet.livejournal.com]

They are in some ways traditional; Mom and Dad are each other's first marriage, and are still together. And Dad's an Episcopal priest, so religious definitions of marriage are a big factor. However, they are remarkably accepting of my life, even when it confuses them. I've been out to them as poly pretty much since I became poly when I was 20 or so (I came out to them as bi when I was 17 or 18, and Mom's response was "we kind of figured"). Although they don't believe that other relationship patterns are specifically set aside and sanctified like mixed-gender marriage, they also don't think it's one of the bigger deals theologically, and generally respect my ethics and values as I try to live them. And they have been unfailingly welcoming and loving toward my partners and chosen family, and have accepted them on the terms we define.

[moominmuppet.livejournal.com]

*smile* Oh, I know. I thank my parents on a regular basis.

[tormentedartist.livejournal.com]

Okay I'd have to say that that pretty much covers it. Its interesting seeing or reading about how a truly nontraditional lifestyle. Although it sort of feels like you have a lot of friends with benefits. Which is fine, I mean I guess my wife is like a friend with benefits...the difference being is that we care for each other more than any friend. Really its like we kind of build our own universe together.
But most poly stuff that I have seen(not much I admit) seems to be built on this model. You have a wife or husband and then you have other lovers. I guess the question that I really have is what makes being poly different than being a swinger? Is it just the fact that the person is more like a friend that you happen to have sex with, or is it something more?

[zodarzone.livejournal.com]

For me, and I haven't exactly researched the politics of swinging, but the definitions I have is that swinging is about trading partners or pretty much a "you're hot, let's do it" sort of attitude while poly is more about establishing deeper relationships. Essentially, swinging is typically one-and-done while poly is built upon. Lastly, communication. With poly there is a lot of discussion of and with the current other partners so that the relationships are all transparent to everyone. I've gotten the impression that there is a more secretive nature to swinging.

[tormentedartist.livejournal.com]

I don't know I guess I always felt that it would be hard to have sex with someone that I didn't at least like. I feel like the swingers are going to end up under the poly umbrella sooner or later. But again that is a life style that I don't know much about. Although I guess swingers attend sex parties, which you don't hear poly people doing.

[moominmuppet.livejournal.com]

The line between swinging and poly is not a bright and clear one. I see a few particularly notable factors that play into how people tend to define themselves:

1) Poly and swinging evolved out of different social backgrounds. Poly has a lot of roots in hippydom, and generally exploratory ways of living. I've generally found that the poly community is more engaged with the concept of "outness", and is also more welcoming to queer folk. Swingers are more likely to maintain a clear boundary between their sexual explorations (no matter how friendly) and the rest of their lives, which may be otherwise extremely mainstream or conservative. Again, I'm talking in broad generalities here, and over time there's been more and more cross-pollination, so I think the distinctions are becoming fuzzy for many people. Historically the swinging community has had a tendency to be more focused on a pretty mainstream beauty standard, and also has had problems being homophobic toward gay and bi men. This is not the case in every swinging situation, nor is it as much the case as it used to be, I gather. But that history still influences who feels comfortable where.

Poly relationships generally allow for a lot more openness to the entire spectrum of emotional involvement. There have been times in my life when I've had more than one primary, where several of us were "united as a team" in the kind of way you and I seem to agree is a meaningful relationship distinction. There are non-primary involvements in my life that are so long-standing and important to me I can't imagine not being able to be out about that. And in my experience people in open relationships who don't do casual sex tend overwhelmingly to migrate to the poly label, while those of us who also do engage in casual sex (and sometimes sex parties) tend to be drawn to one or the other based on other factors, like whether we also form intense and lasting romantic involvements with multiple partners, and in what ways we identify with queer community and such.

And really, poly and swinging are two overlapping categories under the larger umbrella of "open relationships". They're certainly not even the only two options under it.

[tormentedartist.livejournal.com]

Boy I feel like I got myself deep in the rabbithole here
;)

Speaking of "mainstream standards of beauty" you mentioned in another post how you disliked how bigger girls were fetishized by men who were into them. I know you weren't making a blanket statement and you might have just been referring to bbw porn, but what sort of things do you find fetishizing? (yes I made a word up)
I ask because while I don't think that thin girls are ugly...I don't find them as sexually attractive as I do big girls. Is it wrong to find some body types more attractive than others? Honesty,I think my taste in women is otherwise pretty mainstream...I just don't find that thin girls are more attractive than big girls.

[moominmuppet.livejournal.com]

what sort of things do you find fetishizing? (yes I made a word up)

*grin* Nope, it's a real one. Anyway, it's all about the line between appreciation and fetishization, and that is, of course, the subject of much debate. I very much want someone who is interested in me, Sarah, to also appreciate the positive things about me being fat, or bi, or poly. That's an active positive. However, I don't want to feel like the primary source of interest in me as a person is my body shape or my orientation, most especially inaccurate stereotypes about what my body or orientation means about me. And boy howdy, can you tell when it is.

And yes, that's how I feel about mainstream BBW porn that's marketed in such heavily fetishized ways -- it's not about people fucking who happen to have those bodies, it's all about the bodies themselves, and it's very "othering". On the other hand, I love good indie porn that includes fat performers, and have something of a preference for heavier partners (although lots of exceptions), and enjoy fat-positive erotic images in art and photography.

[tormentedartist.livejournal.com]

BTW I totally get you about the BBW porn...especially the feed her fuck her series. I just wanted your take on the issue.

[moominmuppet.livejournal.com]

*nod* The Feeder fetish really especially creeps me out.

[tormentedartist.livejournal.com]

Yeah,I don't get that myself. I actually wish that I knew a feedee so that I could ask them what made them want to gain. Most girls in Bbw porn don't do the gaining thing but I do find that some of them pander to it. Like they will have videos of them eating...but hey at least they are getting paid I guess.